Comments on: ‘Skanky’ Blogging, Anonymity and What’s Right http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/ Creating a User's Guide to Democratized Media Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:13:45 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Interesting stuff I saw online, Aug. 26 to Sep. 9 | STL Social Media Guy http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-387 Interesting stuff I saw online, Aug. 26 to Sep. 9 | STL Social Media Guy Wed, 09 Sep 2009 19:04:34 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-387 [...] ‘Skanky’ Blogging, Anonymity and What’s Right – More helpful fodder for those of us who are constantly fending off attacks on the ability for readers to post anonymously. I was particularly fond of your point, “People who’d ban anonymity don’t seem to realize that it’s technically impossible unless we’re willing to turn over all of our communications in every venue to a central authority — a system that would herald the end of liberty.” It’s a point I’ve made often to anyone who will listen. Even Facebook, which prides itself on “requiring” real names, can live up to that requirement. [...] [...] ‘Skanky’ Blogging, Anonymity and What’s Right – More helpful fodder for those of us who are constantly fending off attacks on the ability for readers to post anonymously. I was particularly fond of your point, “People who’d ban anonymity don’t seem to realize that it’s technically impossible unless we’re willing to turn over all of our communications in every venue to a central authority — a system that would herald the end of liberty.” It’s a point I’ve made often to anyone who will listen. Even Facebook, which prides itself on “requiring” real names, can live up to that requirement. [...]

]]> By: Delia http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-312 Delia Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:24:43 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-312 didn't mean it that way, Seth... D. didn’t mean it that way, Seth… D.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-297 Seth Finkelstein Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:07:15 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-297 Dan, one of the serious ongoing critiques that's made of your posts, by Delia and me and others, is that you tend to emphasize too much what theoretically <em>should</em> happen, to the neglect of the problem that it doesn't. As in "an anonymous personal attack should generate" ... It should, it should, it should. I tell you, it should. Do you hear me, IT SHOULD. Let me preach unto you, brothers and sisters, *IT* *SHOULD*. But ... too often, IT DOESN'T. Now what? If the answer is that you're going to continue sermonizing from the pulpit, that's part of what I mean by trivial. Deeper, how to distinguish personal attack from truth to power? It begs the question to write "An anonymous whistle-blower ... may well be worth listening to.". Because the reader often can't tell if the anonymous comment is whistle-blowing or mud-slinging. Sometimes personal attack from truth to power aren't even obviously distinct (e.g. along the lines of "So-and-so writes this stuff because it makes him money via consulting gigs, it's basically a manipulative sales-pitch for his corporate clients"). Regarding "I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on how to help people become more literate ..." - remember, my ideas are almost the systemic opposite, in that the risk-shifting onto individuals is a terrible trend that's being pushed by an unholy alliance of marketers and propagandists, who passionately want to destroy whatever remnants of countervailing institutions exist. In this context, it turns into a matter of blaming the weak for the depredations of the strong. While the sentiments are not wrong _per se_, it gets downright grotesque in comparison - something like "Because medical costs are skyrocketing and so many lack health insurance, and having a serious illness can destroy a life's-saving and bankrupt people, I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on how to help people eat more nutritiously and exercise regularly - we need to readjust our lifestyles in a for-profit-medicine age. Delia - "I see no good reason to give up my anonymity when deriving no benefits" - when you put it that way, I feel rather stupid :-(. Dan, one of the serious ongoing critiques that’s made of your posts, by Delia and me and others, is that you tend to emphasize too much what theoretically <em>should</em> happen, to the neglect of the problem that it doesn’t. As in “an anonymous personal attack should generate” … It should, it should, it should. I tell you, it should. Do you hear me, IT SHOULD. Let me preach unto you, brothers and sisters, *IT* *SHOULD*. But … too often, IT DOESN’T. Now what? If the answer is that you’re going to continue sermonizing from the pulpit, that’s part of what I mean by trivial.

Deeper, how to distinguish personal attack from truth to power? It begs the question to write “An anonymous whistle-blower … may well be worth listening to.”. Because the reader often can’t tell if the anonymous comment is whistle-blowing or mud-slinging. Sometimes personal attack from truth to power aren’t even obviously distinct (e.g. along the lines of “So-and-so writes this stuff because it makes him money via consulting gigs, it’s basically a manipulative sales-pitch for his corporate clients”).

Regarding “I’d be interested in hearing your ideas on how to help people become more literate …” – remember, my ideas are almost the systemic opposite, in that the risk-shifting onto individuals is a terrible trend that’s being pushed by an unholy alliance of marketers and propagandists, who passionately want to destroy whatever remnants of countervailing institutions exist. In this context, it turns into a matter of blaming the weak for the depredations of the strong. While the sentiments are not wrong _per se_, it gets downright grotesque in comparison – something like “Because medical costs are skyrocketing and so many lack health insurance, and having a serious illness can destroy a life’s-saving and bankrupt people, I’d be interested in hearing your ideas on how to help people eat more nutritiously and exercise regularly – we need to readjust our lifestyles in a for-profit-medicine age.

Delia – “I see no good reason to give up my anonymity when deriving no benefits” – when you put it that way, I feel rather stupid :-(.

]]> By: Delia http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-292 Delia Tue, 01 Sep 2009 03:11:57 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-292 Seth, I see no good reason to give up my anonymity when deriving no benefits from my online presence -- I believe I should be entitled to privacy. Dan, do you ever just read what people say? I mean the vast majority of them choose anonymity online unless they have a good reason not to (as in, they hope to make money off this and building "a name" is important to them). I'm afraid you end up missing some of the best stuff if you just assume the worst because it's anonymous (I was hoping you would have moved away from this by now but looks like nothing has changed:)... Delia Seth, I see no good reason to give up my anonymity when deriving no benefits from my online presence — I believe I should be entitled to privacy.

Dan, do you ever just read what people say? I mean the vast majority of them choose anonymity online unless they have a good reason not to (as in, they hope to make money off this and building “a name” is important to them). I’m afraid you end up missing some of the best stuff if you just assume the worst because it’s anonymous (I was hoping you would have moved away from this by now but looks like nothing has changed:)…

Delia

]]> By: Dan Gillmor http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-290 Dan Gillmor Mon, 31 Aug 2009 15:10:15 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-290 <p>Seth, readers have many ways to figure out if anonymity is justified or not. As noted, for example, an anonymous personal attack should generate a counter-response -- believing the opposite -- unless the attacker has persuasive evidence.</p> <p>An anonymous whistle-blower telling us about a scandal in the public sphere, while still deserving less credibility than someone using their name, may well be worth listening to.</p> <p>I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on how to help people become more literate in gauging reliability in such circumstances.</p> Seth, readers have many ways to figure out if anonymity is justified or not. As noted, for example, an anonymous personal attack should generate a counter-response — believing the opposite — unless the attacker has persuasive evidence.

An anonymous whistle-blower telling us about a scandal in the public sphere, while still deserving less credibility than someone using their name, may well be worth listening to.

I’d be interested in hearing your ideas on how to help people become more literate in gauging reliability in such circumstances.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-289 Seth Finkelstein Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:07:08 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-289 Delia, yes, definitely, my experience sadly shows the negatives of standing behind what one says (it makes it very easy for bullies to kick you). Let me trying this differently: simply put, there's good reasons and bad reasons to be anonymous. The hard problem is that the <em>reader</em> can't tell if the anonymous person is anonymous for a good reason or a bad reason. And Dan's post doesn't engage with this problem beyond the trivial. Delia, yes, definitely, my experience sadly shows the negatives of standing behind what one says (it makes it very easy for bullies to kick you). Let me trying this differently: simply put, there’s good reasons and bad reasons to be anonymous. The hard problem is that the <em>reader</em> can’t tell if the anonymous person is anonymous for a good reason or a bad reason. And Dan’s post doesn’t engage with this problem beyond the trivial.

]]> By: Liskula Cohen case reminder: Consider the source | STL Social Media Guy http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-288 Liskula Cohen case reminder: Consider the source | STL Social Media Guy Mon, 31 Aug 2009 12:19:43 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-288 [...] ‘Skanky’ Blogging, Anonymity and What’s Right Mediactive | August 26, 2009 Particularly fond of the point, “People who’d ban anonymity don’t seem to realize that it’s technically impossible unless we’re willing to turn over all of our communications in every venue to a central authority — a system that would herald the end of liberty.” [...] [...] ‘Skanky’ Blogging, Anonymity and What’s Right Mediactive | August 26, 2009 Particularly fond of the point, “People who’d ban anonymity don’t seem to realize that it’s technically impossible unless we’re willing to turn over all of our communications in every venue to a central authority — a system that would herald the end of liberty.” [...]

]]> By: Delia http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-287 Delia Mon, 31 Aug 2009 02:04:52 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-287 Seth, what I meant to say was that you have received baseless personal attacks from some in power. I believe your experience with this is a strong argument *against* volunteering one's identity online. As long as you are not doing anything wrong, it's really nobody's business WHO you are, *personally*... D. Seth, what I meant to say was that you have received baseless personal attacks from some in power. I believe your experience
with this is a strong argument *against* volunteering one’s identity online. As long as you are not doing anything wrong, it’s really nobody’s business WHO you are, *personally*… D.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-285 Seth Finkelstein Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:20:46 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-285 Ironically, I'm even one of the relatively few people who has done social activism (censorware decryption) with real reasons of  I-need-to-be-anonymous-for-fear-of-being-sued. I'll briefly note it's not all it's cracked up to be :-(. What Dan was saying earlier ("honorably sign your name") is basically that I put my social capital - what little there is of it - behind my writings. But that doesn't make it true or false - plenty of shameless liars put their names to their writings too. Fundamentally, it's all about retaliation, and why it's avoided. You can want to avoid retaliation because you're telling an uncomfortable truth, or a contemptible lie. And an onlooker can't easily tell. Which is a rephrasing of your reason that Dan's argument, while presumably well-intentioned, is not all that meaningful. Ironically, I’m even one of the relatively few people who has done social activism (censorware decryption) with real reasons of  I-need-to-be-anonymous-for-fear-of-being-sued. I’ll briefly note it’s not all it’s cracked up to be :-(.

What Dan was saying earlier (“honorably sign your name”) is basically that I put my social capital – what little there is of it – behind my writings. But that doesn’t make it true or false – plenty of shameless liars put their names to their writings too.

Fundamentally, it’s all about retaliation, and why it’s avoided. You can want to avoid retaliation because you’re telling an uncomfortable truth, or a contemptible lie. And an onlooker can’t easily tell. Which is a rephrasing of your reason that Dan’s argument, while presumably well-intentioned, is not all that meaningful.

]]> By: This and That « Lizr128’s Blog http://mediactive.com/2009/08/26/skanky-blogging-anonymity-and-whats-right/#comment-275 This and That « Lizr128’s Blog Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:57:18 +0000 http://mediactive.com/?p=422#comment-275 [...] to this issue having to do with whether Google should “out” people who write potentially defamatory material, but it’s too complicated for a quick [...] [...] to this issue having to do with whether Google should “out” people who write potentially defamatory material, but it’s too complicated for a quick [...]

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